A lot can be learned regarding how a sailboat sails looking at a good movie. Not the same thing as sailing the boat but worth commenting. And let's not forget that comparing two fast boats in what regards sail performance, sailing both boats, but not having both in the water at the same time, can be very misleading.
The real test in what regards true performance and handicap performance can only be given on the race course and not any race but on the main ones, that have good racing crews, where we can be sure that there is a good possibility that the boats are being sailed close to their potential, specially if there are several competing.
The Dehler 30OD is on the water but not for so long as the JPK 10.30 and has not yet been raced in a major race, unlike the JPK 10.30, that won its class on the last Fastnet, being really fast on the water.
In real time it was only about half an hour slower than the fastest XP44 (3 days 2 hours 47 minutes), faster than the fastest Jboat racing, a J133 (and they were many with several models) and faster than the fastest Grand Soleil 43.
The results on the Fastnet are even more impressive if we consider that all the other boats I mentioned were sailed by a full crew while the JPK 10.30 was sailed by a duo, being one of them the builder of the boat. Of course they also won the two handed division, leaving the second, a brand new Sunfast 3300, at more than 4 hours in real time and almost 5 in compensated.
I have no doubt that the JPK 10.30 is a great design and that it will be a winner of many races. Let's wait for the racing results of the Dehler, in real time and in handicap to see what its real performance is.
Regarding the movies the JPK looks perfectly balanced while it seems to me that the Dehler buries too much the bow on the water and that's curious because, looking at the bow shape, the one of the Dehler seems more modern, but of course the buoyancy of the forward sections and the longitudinal CG are more important.
The Dehler seems to have very narrow entries and very narrow forward sections and has a big beam with all the beam pulled aft. Such a design needs to have a lot of buoyancy at the bow. Compare its design with the one of the Pogo 30 and you will see what I mean.
It should be noted, that the Dehler 30 OD was just build to be fast, not towards any handicap.
ReplyDeleteIt is supposed to shine in the Silverrudder Challenge (30 feet bracket) and to offer interesting one design races.
However, I'm also interested in real time comparisons with the handicap boats.
Yes you are right, the Dehler 30 od was designed to be fast regardless the performance under any handicap so, even if 30cm shorter (only 21cm on the LWL) the sail performance should be at least the same as the one of the JPK 10.30 because this one was designed to win on IRC and not, as the Dehler, designed to be as fast, no matter any handicap.
DeleteI bet that when the two will race together the JPK 10,30 will be faster on almost all circumstances and much faster upwind.
With some luck we will be seeing them both racing the Transquadra and some major IRC races and we can then compare real time performance.
Maybe we will see them both on the Silverrudder and even if they are not racing on the same division (by few cms) we can compare real time performance.
Hi Paulo,
DeleteThanks for the interesting blog.
What elements of the JPK 10.30 do you think will make it faster than the Dehler?
First race with a JPK 10.10 and 3 Dehlers, the Baltic 500.
DeleteOne of the Dehler 30 OD did not finish the race, the other two finished.
One of them was faster than the JPK 10.10 in real time (47m in 72 hours of race) the other one was just a bit slower.
The JPK 10.10 is considerably slower in duo on offshore races than the JPK 10.30, not only because it is a newer design but because it has no water ballasts.
We will have to wait more time for a comparison between the JPK 10.30 and the Dehler 30 OD sailed in duo in offshore races.
On this one the results are not yet conclusive. Only one JPK and three Dehler 30 OD on a race that is not yet a top race, were the best are always fast racers.
On this one it is difficult to know how well the boats were sailed, namely the Dehler 30 OD.
The JPK 10.10 is already a 9 year old design and age helps it to get a better result in handicap, but it won the ORC race, so it was well sailed.
For to know who really is faster overall (with mixed conditions) we will have to wait and see.
ReplyDeleteSurely they will compete against each other in some races but the JPK 10.30 has already proved itself in race and in a great way, not only on IRC but in real time.
Regarding directly your question I think that all has to do with the design quality even if they are different approaches. Looking at the movies the JPK looks top me better balanced.
I don't like the way the Dehler carries the the bow low on the water even if this is a characteristic that was common in IRC designs but today what I see is a strong trend to make bows with a big buoyancy, going sometimes out of the water and making planning easier.
Call it a hunch if you like. Anyway we will see soon, but for sure the JPK 10,30 will be a much more polyvalent boat able to win on regatta, offshore races and Transats offering also a less radical and more comfortable cruising interior
Who want's to sail a Dehler 30 in IRC? It does not work. But you are right: it will be interesting to see them both racing against each other. The first time, they will sail in the same region will be next week in Barcelona for the European Yacht of the year award.
ReplyDeleteI was hoping that some would make the nex Transquadra (2020), the most popular amateur transat and a race suited for that boat but even if there are already 50 inscriptions, with several SF3300 and JPK10.30, there is not a single Dehler 30OD.
DeleteMaybe someone will race with one. It would be very interesting in what regards comparing performances.
First race with a JPK 10.10 and 3 Dehlers, the Baltic 500.
DeleteOne of the Dehler 30 OD did not finish the race, the other two finished.
One of them was faster than the JPK 10.10 in real time (47m in 72 hours of race) the other one was just a bit slower.
The JPK 10.10 is considerably slower in duo on offshore races than the JPK 10.30, not only because it is a newer design but because it has no water ballasts.
We will have to wait more time for a comparison between the JPK 10.30 and the Dehler 30 OD sailed in duo in offshore races.
On this one the results are not yet conclusive. Only one JPK and three Dehler 30 OD on a race that is not yet a top race, were the best are always fast racers.
On this one it is difficult to know how well the boats were sailed, namely the Dehler 30 OD.
The JPK 10.10 is already a 9 year old design and age helps it to get a better result in handicap, but it won the ORC race, so it was well sailed.
The to Dehler 30 was 30 min faster then the to JPK 10.30 in Silverrudder 2021!!!
ReplyDeleteA race with very fair windconditions.
No, not 30 minutes but 9 minutes 30 seconds.
ReplyDeleteI never said that in some conditions the Dehler 30OD was not faster than the JPK 10.30, quite the contrary, but in this particular Silveruder edition had lots of wind and lots of strong wind for downwind sailing and beam reaching, where the Dehler 30OD is faster and almost no weak winds, were the JPK 10.30 is much stronger.
Note that an old Figaro 2 was faster than the fastest of the Dehler 30OD and that in many occasions the JPK 10.30 (in big races) have been faster than the Figaro 2.
Let's wait for more results, specially results in top IRC races, like the Fastnet or the Middle Sea Race (elapsed time), or even the results of the next Silverudder, that probably will not be as windy as this one.
Hi Paulo,
ReplyDeleteThe Baltic 500 race from Kiel is just about to finish. Apparently the Dehler 30 OD has made a good race with it's rival JPK 1030.
There are also some other interesting boats doing well; A SeaQuest 36 (old R/P design), a First 36 in the front line and a JPK 38 FC a bit behind. I think the race started in light winds which made it complicated for the participants. Some of them ended the race prematurely.
The results seem to confirm what I have suspected: from the many Dehler 30 OD only one managed to be faster on the water than the fastest JPK10.30 (only two racing against 6 Dehler 30OD) and the JPK10.30 won easily in ORC.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that in most conditions the JPK 10.30 can be as fast as the Dehler, and because it has a much lower rating, it is a much better sailboat for winning in IRC/ORC racing.
Even the older JPK10.10 was faster than most Dehlers, and it has a rating even better than the JPK 10.30 one. A great boat for these types of racing, if the budget is low.