Wednesday, October 13, 2021

NEW 460, A HANSE THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A HANSE


And with good reason. The Hanse were designed by Judel/Vrolijk, this one is designed by Berret/Racopeau, and the previous 458 now becomes the 460.

The 460 is slightly longer (HL 13.87 – 13.55m) much more beamier (4.79 – 4.38m),  fatter, with less finer entries,  considerably higher freeboards, heavier (12,560 – 11.700kg) and with less B/D (26.7% - 28.9%), for a similar L keel with the same draft (2.25m).

Obviously, the objective was increasing the interior volume and cockpit space and that was surely attained: not only is the boat much beamier as it has all beam pulled aft, not to mention the bigger freeboard, that will give it a superior interior height.

Of course, these substantial alterations are reflected in sail performance: the new boat will sail worse with light winds, will go slower upwind and probably will go faster downwind with strong winds, will roll a bit less, and will sail with slightly less heel.


Above the 460, below the 458
SA/D shows this, especially on the version with a classic mast where the 458 has upwind a 20.3 SA/D while the 460 has 19.9 SA/D (both with self-tacking jib). With the in-furling mast the difference is not so big because the new furling mast has considerably more sail area (if they don’t change the data like Bavaria did on the C42) than the one on the 458. In this case, the 458 has 18.0 SA/D and the 460 has 19.0.

But this does not mean that the 460, compared with this version, will have a better upwind performance, because it has less fine entries, a much bigger beam and a transom with all beam pulled back and a design that limits heeling. All this will add a lot of drag if compared with the 458 that has a considerably bigger B/D (28.9% to 26.7%). The two things put together will give a much better upwind power to drag on the 458, in light wind, and even more with stronger winds and waves.

Downwind the 458 has respectively  43.4 SA/D and 40.1 SA/D (classic and furling mast) and the 460 will have 44.0 SA/D and 43.0 SA/D. Here, especially on the classic mast version the increase in downwind sail area will not be enough to make the 458 faster in light winds. Only in stronger winds will the 460  be faster due to its huge hull form stability.

A big freeboard does not contribute to a sailboat beauty (quite the contrary) but in this case that increase is well disguised and will only be apparent in some positions. A modern slightly inverted bow and a well-designed integrated bowsprit as well as a nice transom design contribute to making the boat look contemporary, and disguises well the increase in beam and the higher freeboards.

However, the design created a cut with traditional Hanse shapes that allowed to recognize a Hanse from  other yachts. This Hanse lost identity and even if it is nice, it looks now more like an Oceanis than a Hanse.

The Solent rig, which appears on the first images,  is a positive introduction and it makes a lot of sense because this boat does need a lot more sail area to sail with weak winds than the 458. 

In situations where the self-tacking jib was enough on the 458, the 460, having more drag, will need a bigger sail to sail effectively. That is why a big genoa will be much more needed on the 460. and therefore the need of the Solent alongside with the self-tacking jib.

However the Solent rig increases the yacht price, and in this case, the small distance between the two furlers, will make it mandatory to roll the genoa when tacking, deploying it again on the other tack. If this looks easy with light winds, with medium winds (where the genoa can be used advantageously), it will not be so easy and will imply a lot of work in coastal sailing, where tacks are frequent.

On the positive side of things, it seems that this boat will have a cored hull. The 458 was announced with one (foam core) but later they changed to a monolithic hull. A cored hull will increase the boat rigidity, but the core of this one will be balsa, which has very good mechanical properties, it is cheaper than other good cores but can rot if there is water intrusion.

Also positive is the increase in interior volume. The most interesting alterations and use of the extra space are especially interesting for charter use. Regarding an owner’s use, the most interesting alteration is the possibility of having three good cabins, with three heads.

But this option, which I am sure will be the one that will sell more among owners, will only be suited for short-range cruising, or marina to marina use because the storage space aft (that is bigger than on the 458) will be necessary as technical space for the generator and other equipment.

The forward cabin is much bigger, especially the bed as well as the aft cabins, and I am sure that this will make this yacht much more successful than the 458.

But what is good for charter many times does not suit other uses and in what regards aft cabins I would have preferred the aft cabins to be slightly smaller (that would still make them as big as in the 458) and to create behind the engine a technical space for generator, water maker and other technical equipment.

Having the technical equipment in the aft cockpit locker is not a good idea in what regards accessibility and mixing storage space with technical space.

The galley on the 3 cabin/three-head version, is slightly smaller than the one on the 458 but much worse for using while sailing. On the other version, the galley is huge but even less adapted to be used while sailing. That is not necessarily bad, it depends on the use that it is given to the boat.

If the boat is used in relatively short jumps between marinas or anchorages the galley will not be used while in navigation and at anchor or in the marina that huge galley will be very much appreciated by the ones that cook or wash the dishes. Anyway, that is the way that most that cruise use their boats, including charter use, so I would say it makes sense for many, probably the majority.


First the 460, above, the 458

The interior 460 style and design seem more modern and pleasant, but I do not like that big "door" from the saloon to the cabin, cut on the main bulkhead. They are going to say that is all controlled, but it seems obvious that the bulkhead resistance will not be the same. Sure, there are ways to make the bulkhead stronger, but all that I know imply very expensive reinforcements and different, more expensive materials, and I don’t believe it is the case with the Hanse 460.

The 460 will be more expensive than the 458. Standard on the shipyard, without VAT, the 460 will cost 237.022€ (the 458 costs 212.925€). That was to be expected because the 460 is a bigger yacht, beamier and slightly longer, including a fixed bowsprit.

19 comments:

  1. Paulo, polar diagram shows that Hanse 460 is faster boat then Hanse 458. It is faster upwind, downwind, in strong winds, and is much faster in light winds.
    How would you comment on that?

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    1. Polar speeds, specially the ones that are not going to contribute for a racing rating are what they are and they are made considering flat water, a thing that rarely exists.

      Beamy boats, with large bow entries have a much bigger wave drag, and lose a lot of speed due to that drag.

      Overall the 458 is a faster boat than the 460, I have no doubt about that, and you only have to look at the data and hulls to know that.

      Regarding the 460 being much faster in Light winds, it is quite impossible because there is no doubt that the 460 will develop considerably more drag (more displacement, much more beam), and the SA/D is even bigger on the 458 than on the 460.

      To sail as fast as the 458 the 460 would need a considerable bigger SA/D due to much beamier hull.

      But you know, to compare polars you have to compare boats with the same sails, and I bet the polar on the 458 was made with the self-taking jib and the one on the 460 with the genoa.

      Did you saw that on the technical information they consider (on the 460) the sail area upwind the area with the genoa? Everybody knows that the sail area upwind should be measured with a non overlapping jib, otherwise what would prevent to consider it with a huge genoa or even a code 0?

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    2. Paulo,

      please look at the documents on Hanse website. Everything is available there and for me polars can be compared, both are with Jib for 460 and 458 in upwind angles.
      Hanse is probably one of the last mass production shipyard that puts so many technical information on the web and it is available for everyone.

      Except polars, I have found this explanation in one of the marketing materials:
      "A great deal of effort and experience went into the hull, and in the end a great deal was gained. We now have a hull that has a very slim waterline due to the
      chines in the bow and because of the soft chines in the stern.
      This means little wetted area, and the hull only gains its width above the
      waterline to create the necessary space for an extremely luxurious interior."

      Regards, Pawel

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  2. Well, you can believe in that huge difference in speed with light winds between the 458 and the 460, you can believe that the 460 it is much faster than the 458 on those circumstances, even if it is much beamier, heavier, with less finer entries and with a smaller SA/D, but unless you believe in miracles, that cannot be true.

    If they were boats used for racing we would have some chances to see their real performance on the same race. Like it is, only if some sail magazine is as curious as myself about the huge difference between those two polars, specially in light wind, and organize a test sail with the two boats. I would like very much to see that.

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    1. What you wrote about SA/D and other parameters makes a lot of sense, no doubts. However, publicly available data from Hanse show something else and it makes me wonder whether those data are manipulated or we are missing something. Maybe a hull shape underwater can make a difference?
      Anyway, I would also like to see the direct compare between those two models! In fact, I might have opportunity to do it myself so I will leave the comment after that.
      Thanks for good discussion, Pawel

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    2. All this data, Polars and stability curves, for being comparable have to be made the same way, using the same parameters and that is not many times the case, even more when they are used for publicity. Manipulated is a strong word but you get my drift.

      And there is another thing that I had already explained, Polars consider flat water and don't take into account wave drag, that increases dramatically with beam. That is why, for the same displacement, beamier sailboats need more sail area than considerably narrower yachts, to have the same performance.

      I have seen this before in what regards beamy boats and untrue Polars: I remember that someone that worked with Pogo posted in his site the Polars of the Pogo 12.50 and X-41, to show that the Pogo was much faster upwind and with weak winds (that was what the Polars showed).

      About these two yachts we have much information from racing and effectively the X-41 is much faster upwind and with weak wind than the Pogo.

      The reason why the X-41 is a good option in what regards handicap racing it is because it can be sailed to the values given by its Polar speed, sometimes above, while the reason why the Pogo 12.50 is so bad (in handicap racing) it is because it is very far from being able to be sailed at the speeds that its polar give.

      If you want a fast 46ft cruiser probably the best option is the Salona 460. It is only a bit more expensive but the quality is superior. Salona had some problems with built quality in a transition period but it is better now and I have the means to control de quality of a boat built there.

      Nice to discuss this with you.

      Paulo

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  3. In fact I think you both are right. Numbers are numbers and less SA/D and B/D everything else being equal means new 460 is less powerful than older boat. But one thing is having the power, other is being able to exploit it fully. As Hanse marketing says the new one has a more "modern" hull design with slimmer waterline that means less drag. In light winds, at reduced heel, drag is the most important factor reducing "power" and probably the difference is sufficient to still get better "polar" performances than the older boat. In the real world this would probably be true in ideal flat waters with no waves. More wind and the boat will heel and waves will appear. The waterline shape will change and the form stability will also play in the game. We have no information about specific hull parameters for 460 but I assume the shape will still be optimized till some optimum angle of heel after which drag will start to increase till when chines will hit water and drag will really go up the roof. It is possible the old version had an higher initial form stability but also would have drag starting way earlier and this would explain better 460 polars across the board. With the modern high chined hull designs with more rounded sterns in fact the actual waterline shape can be very different from the visual freeboard appearance, it's actually "hidden" below the chines. It probably looks way more like older more traditional oval shaped hulls which in fact have typically better performance upwind. Just look at waterlines for the previous generation "sleds", they are more like triangular shapes as the waterline shape coincides with the freeboard shape especially at stern and while they may have a huge initial form stability they will pay the price with much higher drag. This may explain why, always on the paper, new hull has better performance than older also in stronger winds. It is a delicate balance of shape and waterline beam. If you are not convinced about the impact of waterline hull shape on performance Jean Pierre Kelbert when talking about his new JPK39FC said that 25 more centimeters width at the waterline 2 meters from bow increased "stiffness" so much to delay the need to reef the main from 20 knots to 25 knots (vs JPK38FC). 25 knots is almost 60% more wind force than 20 knots so the gain is actually huge. And this because of a "little known or talked about" parameter that no builder reports or see (can you visually "measure" a 12 cm difference at waterline?). Of course VPP programs do take into account in great detail hull shape and parameters, not so much waves and sea conditions...one important performance factor in waves and stronger winds is acceleration. This is driven primarily by SA/D. I believe too that the 460 will be slower in those conditions, it will slow down more (less fine entry especially in waves) and most importantly will accelerate less after each wave (less SA/D) with a net result of an average lower speed. But then again more rounded bow means more buoyancy that is more capability to "surf" up the waves if they are not too short; higher stern means less drag there and different damping. It's really a fine balance of a ton of design parameters. Finally another important performance factor is balance. It is possible new boat is slightly more balanced than the old ones. It looks mast is slightly advanced vs the old one in pictures above but I am not sure, sails shape and keel position and shape play into the equation too. Anyway a better balanced boat will have less weather or lee helm and skipper will have to work much less the brakes (i.e. rudders...).

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    1. Alessandro, such a big comment! I have avoided to comment it out of laziness, not because I agree with most you say LOL

      You start wrongly thinking that the 460 is less powerful and that is not the case, at least in the way that normally is considered power in a sailboat. Yes, it has less B/D but it has a much beamier hull with a lot more form stability. It has certainly a bigger overall stability, due to that and to a bigger displacement. The 460 has a bigger stability curve than the 458, and we can say that it is more powerful.

      But being more powerful does not mean faster, in all points of sail, and I had said that probably the 460 is faster downwind with high medium, strong winds.

      The speed of a boat has not only to do with power, but with the relation between power and drag. The best way to look at this relation is looking at SA/D and in what regards that the 458, considering the two yachts, with the options that give them their bigger sail area, has a bigger SA/D upwind than the 460.

      SA/D is the best indicator because there is a strong relation between displacement, wet area and drag, but it is not perfect because it leaves out wave drag and hull design. Wave drag augments in a huge way with beam, and because the 468 is much narrower it means that the wave drag is much bigger on the 460 and bigger the waves, bigger the difference.

      Regarding being a more “modern” design, in what regards performance, you are being mislead by publicity. Fact is that the Hanse 458 design has few years and their designers (Judel/Vrolijk) have an incomparable bigger experience, in what regards to design race and fast sailboat than Berret/Racopeau, that are strangers to this market and type of design.

      Believing that only few years, later Berret/Racopeau, could design a hugely faster sailboat (by the polars) than what Judel/Vrolijk were able to design some years before, a boat that unlike racing boats (designed for being fast in a balanced way) is very beamy and with a much bigger beam, interior volume and windage (than the 458), is believing in fairytales.

      Regarding a longer LWL, you are right, in a general way, but of no relevance in light winds, or upwind (if the difference is not huge) except with stronger winds.

      This year with my 41ft I had the pleasure to easily catch (upwind) and overtake a new Jeanneau 60. Off course, the Jeanneau has a much bigger LWL (and sail area), that in light to medium low winds serves for nothing.

      Only when the wind allows the Jeanneau to reaches near its hull speed, that is almost 10kt, it has advantage over my boat, that has just slightly over 8kt hull speed, but because my boat has a better power/drag than the jeanneau, it allows it to reach, 5, 6 or 7kt with less wind than the Jeanneau, and allows it to be faster in light wind.

      Something similar happens between the Hanse 460 and 458, in light wind.

      Upwind, with stronger winds, because with stronger winds there are bigger waves, the drag will increase much more on the 460, while the 458, with finer entries and a bigger B/D, will have a better Power/drag ratio and will be faster.

      Only with strong winds downwind, where the wave drag has much less importance than upwind, the 460, due to its bigger stability and bigger LWL will be faster. But overall in what regards cruising or even in what racing, if not in a Transat, the 458 will be faster, in a general way.


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  4. Hello,

    I have no problem to accept the 460 could be faster than the 445/455/458. Waterline is really longer (13.05 vs 12.20, near 7% more). The sail area is bigger (115m² vs 100m², 14% more)
    These are primary basic speed parameters, before beam or displacement.

    Regards.

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    1. No, those are not the main speed parameters. Main speed parameters are the relation between Power and Drag and drag increases with beam and with displacement.

      I explained this on the reply you can see above your comment.

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  5. I did put the cat among the pigeons with my first comment :-)
    Great discussion though!
    Hanse 460 is now being tested by different magazines as a part of the European Yacht of the Year 2022 contest. I am very interested in their comments about the boat and its overall performance. In social media I saw that they had very little wind in the first day of sea trials somewhere close to Barcelona.

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  6. Without another boat on the water comparing speeds is impossible, and they tend to get impressed with downwind high speeds, if the wind is strong.

    The only way to compare two boats is having them on the water, with similar quality sails and specifications, and sail them together in all points of sail. Very rare. When they do that rarely the two boats don't have the same equipment.

    You can see here a sail comparative test between the Oceanis 40.1 and the Bavaria C42, two very beamy boats, but the Bavaria has better sails, a performance rig and a folding propeller, while the Oceanis was standard.

    You will learn very little with such a test because you don't know how the Oceanis will sail with similar equipment, and even so the performance between the two boats, with those differences in equipment, is close.

    However they said that the C42 is faster, and that is unfair because you don't know that. You know that the C42 with much better optional sail equipment sails faster, and that is to be expected, if the two boats have a close sail performance, with different equipment.

    But you can hear them saying that both boats need a lot of sail (gennaker) to sail with light wind due to very beamy hulls, and here I have to agree. It will happens the same with the Hanse 460.

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    1. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBGp1BC0YS0

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  7. Hi Paulo,
    I want to note the actual List price for 460 ; 245.900€ for 2022 model, But they say 270.900€ for 2023 model (delivery in 2023). It is a true madness anymore..

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    1. Buying a boat is a tricky business. I believe that had to do with a promotional price with the first commands. That difference corresponds roughly to the discount they were offering in equipment on boats of that size (458) ordered between July and August 2021. That means also that they have a lot of commands for the 460.
      http://hanseyachts.hr/news/ealry-bird-offer-2021-here/

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  8. Rumoer is that Hanse cancelled all the 460 orders and sells every new boat for 2023 pricing

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    1. That you be a scandal and I doubt that it would be even legal. An order is a contract between the buyer and the seller and cannot be terminated without a penalty.

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  9. Cheers!

    I'm interested in the polar stuff as well. The 460 is (according to Hanse's own published performance estimates) actually faster than the 508 as well!

    I would normally not give that too much thought, since boat builders usually don't publish any (most) of the base parameters that go into the speed prediction software. Regarding Hanse, however, I'm disappointed if they've ended up producing misleading polars.

    We had the 388 for three years, and after recording hundreds of millions of actual real-life performance data points, I was happy that see that real "optimal" performance was well in par with what they marketed in their technical documents on their website.

    Strange, indeed!

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  10. I guess the most obvious explanation (like you said earlier) would be that they have used the mainsail + genoa combination in the VPP program even though it is _explicitly_ specified as 'jib' in the actual document.

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