I had already made a preliminary post about the Grand Soleil 44, a very nice design from which good things were to be expected, you can access it here:
But expectations do not always come true, and now, after some tests in different wind conditions, by different sail testers from sail magazines, it is time to see if those expectations came true, and if this beautiful yacht sails as well as it looks.
Looking at the design data and hull shape, I would have expected a boat with an excellent performance in light wind, a very good to excellent performance upwind, especially in light and medium winds and a good performance downwind (excellent in lighter winds). A yacht that in its racing configuration could do very well in a regatta, even at top level.
It is soon to see how well it performs in regatta, but in what the other predictions are concerned the different test sails confirmed the boat potential in light and medium winds. No test was yet made with winds over 20k, but I don't see any reason for the boat not to perform in those conditions according to expectations.
The sail test from "TuttoBarche" magazine has taken place under light wind conditions and it is probably for that reason that it is the most flattering of all test sails to date, in fact they seem to have been astonished by the superb light wind performance. The tested yacht was a mix between the cruising and racing versions, with carbon spars, six winches and lighter furniture (no cabinets in the saloon) but with teak decks and cruising sails.
They said that with only 4/5 kt of wind and code 0, they sailed at 7.0 kt at 35/40º of apparent wind. They considered the GS44 ability to make apparent wind incredible. With 7/8 kt wind, the boat sailed at near 9kts. Changed for a 110% genoa and they reported:
"We opened the smaller sail and the magic continued, now we really tighten to the wind, we pointed below 30 degrees, and we still sail at 8 knots. At 24 degrees of apparent wind, we are making 7.8 k, and the GS 44 crosses the waves almost without slowing down...no one touches a sheet, I helm from windward with incredible simplicity, the wheel has a millimeter precision".
With 10 kt of wind with the code 0, between 70º and 110º, they sailed between 9 and 10 kt, surfing in the waves at 11, 12kts and they commented: "there are 10 knots of real wind and this boat goes like a missile" and concluded:
"The new GS 44 Performance is a crazy boat. Associate uncommon performance with ease of use that, honestly, I have never encountered before. These hull lines are not only spot on, they are a new world or, if you prefer, a new way of sailing, different from what we have seen and tried to date. Briefly, I could define this boat as a 44-foot that goes like a 50 and that maneuvers like a ten-meter."
"Simple and fast, the new GS 44 Performance has hit the mark, creating a real fun machine, as perfect for racing as it is comfortable and simple for cruising, with family and friends who, inevitably, will have a lot of fun chasing and to “putting in the rearview mirror” any and all sailboats that come into view."
After these words, Matteo Polli's (yacht designer) comments, when he test sailed the boat for the first time, seem less laudatory, reasonable and accurate (quoted from Sea Horse Magazine):
"With the helm in my hands, I was able to judge the characteristics of the boat in various different wind conditions: the GS44 sailed well at all speeds, both upwind and downwind, confirming my expectations as a pleasant and fun hull to be at sea with, especially thanks to the ability to make careful and precise adjustments to the sails and the well-designed deck layout. Even in windier conditions, pointing high on the wind and at a steep angle of heel, the helm responds well."
"You can even afford some handling errors: her stability allows you to carry full sail even in strong winds, an interesting aspect for a boat that does not necessarily rely on having the weight of a full crew on the gunwale."
"We had a range of conditions between 6kts and 14kts with sea state from calm to 0.5m waves with a pretty long wavelength. The boat was equipped with a cruising fully battened mainsail and furling jib plus a furling Code 0 and sailed in double-handed mode.
Unfortunately, the instruments were not calibrated so we had the chance to check the speed but not the angles. That said, even with cruising sails the boat speed read-outs were promising. Top speed close-hauled was 8.2kts and 15.5kts was achieved on a beam reach with a Code 0, which is remarkable for a production cruiser-racer."
"The GS44 being larger and with a more cruiser-racer soul compared to more racing-oriented designs I did in the past, needed a diverse approach on the hull shape. Extensive use of CFD allowed me to find the best compromise between rating and performance while trying to maximize real performance, which is always important even when racing on handicap. "
"More attention was paid to the low wind range, where boats with such a high level of comfort tend to lack speed and fun factor. The most important feature of the hull is the ability to change the shape characteristics as the heel angle varies, passing from a relatively narrow, dry and low prismatic shape when upright to a wide, powerful and longer shape at higher heel angles.
It is particularly challenging trying to achieve this goal while maintaining the correct longitudinal trim balance and of course the volume for the interiors."
"The result can be easily seen looking at the boat from the stern and when entering in the saloon… hopefully soon we will also see it on the racing results! The GS 44 is very much an all-rounder. From the design perspective, I have tried to achieve an all-round performance profile without preferring one range of points of sail to another, looking for a balance that could be enjoyed both when racing and when cruising."
"Of course particular attention has been paid to VMG performance since it often represents the largest percentage of sailing, not only during inshore racing....Two things worth noting are the single rudder and lack of chines in the boat’s aft quarters. That decision has many reasons behind it. And it’s not really true that a single rudder blade configuration makes a boat more difficult to steer provided it is designed correctly."
"The twin rudders and chined hull combination works well at high heel angles and high speeds, but that only happens when power reaching in strong winds. On all other points of sail and also when mooring, a well-designed single rudder can be more efficient. For the GS44 I have designed a fairly big rudder blade and positioned it quite far forward to avoid ventilation at high heel angles. "
"This created some problems with the boat’s interiors, which the yard staff solved brilliantly and the result when sailing is remarkable. Pushing the boat hard at true wind angles of even less than 90° under a big Code 0 in 12-14kts and with 25° to 30° of heel, I never managed to lose control at the helm which is surely reassuring. The GS44’s big foretriangle is another key design feature. Large headsails help in acceleration not only out of tacks but also during starts, and it is particularly evident in light wind situations..."
Mauro Giuffrè that test sailed the boat for the "Giornale della vela" said: "Comfortable. This is the first sensation that we feel at the helm of the Grand Soleil 44. where comfortable, in this case, is the easiness while steering a true performance boat".
"At the helm the GS44 is precise and while correcting the course, in gusts, it gradually swerves to lean on the knee of the stern. At that point the inclination of the hull stops, or it increases even more slowly, giving a great feeling of stability and acceleration, as the waterline length increases."
With 12k true wind with a 110% gennaker at 25º to the apparent wind, the boat sailed between 7.3/7.5kt. With Code 0 with 60º apparent wind, sailed between 8.3/9.0kt.
With no French, Spanish or Nordic tests yet, the less enthusiastic sail review, and sail test, was the one made by Michael Good, for the German magazine "Yacht", the biggest European Sail magazine.
With German pragmatism, he points out that due to the fine hull entries, even if the GS has a small sail locker in the bow, the forward cabin is not wide on the forward side, and that, at shoulder level, the available space is only 1.25 meters, and that is a bit tight for two adults.
Obviously, that can be solved by sleeping with the feet towards the bow...but the reading lights are at the bow side, and all is conceived to sleep the other way around. He is right, the space should be redesigned reversing the sleeping position, with the feet to the bow, with all necessary design implications that imply.
He complains that the saloon is nicely designed but with little storage, though of course, if you want you can have cabinets on the saloon (Performance cruising version) even if you chose in all other components the Racing version. In fact, you can have your proper mix, between the racing and the performance version.
He also says that the storage space outside is not much, and again I agree. The sail locker is small, there is a dedicated space for a life-raft and a reasonably sized locker on the cockpit floor but there is no storage space under the cockpit seats, being all space used to give more interior volume to the aft cabins.
If you want to use this boat for cruising and living aboard for considerable periods, probably you will have to use one of the aft cabins for storage, unless you don't stay much at anchor. He complains also that, for the ones that need to use a cabin for storage, this would be better achieved if the boat had a two-cabin version, allowing for a smaller cabin/storage space and for a truly decent-sized chart table and seat, instead of the small one that is provided.
Racing version interior
I agree that for some sailors, including me, a two-cabin version would be more interesting even if I would choose to prolong the galley over a bigger chart table, but I know that the three-cabin version would be much more popular, and can understand the savings that are obtained proposing a single interior layout, but still believe some would be glad to pay more for that solution.
He had bad luck because the boat he tested had the rudder cables too tight, and that made for a hard rudder with a lack of sensibility. Because this contradicts what other test sailors said about the rudder feeling and precision I assume this was a problem with that particular boat.
Performance cruising interior
Besides that, in what regards sailing, he says about the same as the others, that the boat is very good with light wind, that is very dynamic while maneuvering and that it allies power and fun in a very pleasant and satisfactory way.
So, by now, you should be thinking: well, that's a lot of data, but what I want to know is what difference this boat has in what regards other fast performance sailboats with different hulls, for instance, how it sails compared with a Solaris 44, or a Pogo 44? Ok, let's accept the challenge and try to explain the differences, the stronger and weaker sailing and cruising points of each one of them.
Pogo 44 interior
Starting with the Pogo 44, which is really a smaller yacht (not a 44ft boat but a 42ft boat) with a hull lenght of 12.80m (GS - 13.40), but even so a much beamier boat, with a 4.5m beam (GS - 4.27), with an ultra-light building, and to save weight, a very simple interior that dismisses all interior trims and materials that provide insulation, and even dismisses all doors, with the exception of the head one, a spartan and less comfortable interior.
The Pogo displaces only 6900kg (GS: 9000 - 9500kg) with a non-discriminated ballast and a swing keel with 1.38/3.10m draft, while the GS has a 2.40 to 2.80m draft. However, if the boats were the same length, the Pogo would be proportionally heavier, having, maybe, around 8200 kg displacement.
Besides length, displacement and beam, the hull form is completely different, not only due to beam, but also due to transom shape. The Pogo is a boat designed to sail with small angles of heel and to provide maximum stability and power on a beam reach, and downwind, while the GS 44 has a hull that is designed to offer minimum wet water surface when sailing with small angles of heel. It was a hull that "has the ability to change the shape characteristics as the heel angle varies, passing from a relatively narrow, dry and low prismatic shape when upright to a wide, powerful and longer shape at higher heel angles".
These characteristic give the GS44 a much better sail performance in light winds and upwind, and even if the hull characteristics mentioned by his designer minimize the losses on beam reaching and downwind potential, if compared with a more traditional hull maximized for upwind and light wind, like the one of the J45, it will never have the power or hull form stability of Pogo's hull, while power reaching or sailing downwind, with high-medium, or strong winds.
On a circumnavigation, on a Transat, or sailing on the trade winds, the Pogo will be a faster and easier boat to sail, but on variable and coastal conditions, with weaker and variable winds, with more of a 50% of upwind and downwind conditions, the GS44 will be faster. On coastal traditional regattas, with upwind and downwind sailing, the GS44 will always win and I don't mean in compensated (where it will be hugely faster) but in real-time, over the water.
In what regards offshore regattas or races, it will depend on the conditions. On a Transat, the Pogo will be faster, probably it will be faster also on the Caribean 600, or any other offshore race with a lot more beam reaching and downwind sailing, than upwind sailing, and where the winds are high-medium to strong.
On a Fastnet, it will depend on the edition, on the Sydney Hobart the Pogo will be slower, as well as on Med and Baltic races. On races with a fair share of upwind and downwind sailing, and a fair share of different wind conditions, the GS44, will always be faster, unless very unusual conditions prevail, and I am always talking about real-time over the water, because on compensated time (handicap racing), maybe except on a Transat, the GS 44 will always win.
Regarding cruising advantages, the Pogo offers the fantastic potential of a swinging keel, that when up has a draft of only 1.38m, allowing the boat to go to any small and swallow port or anchoring where others will not be able to. It offers a very stable platform, sails with a small heel, and offers great fun and ease in sailing very fast with beam and downwind winds, with the advantage of being easy on the autopilot.
GS 44 Racing Version
It offers also an unbeatable price for the performance, especially if we consider that a swing keel with all ballast on the keel is expensive. The Pogo costs standard almost 50 000 euros less than the GS44 and that difference will be even bigger on fully equipped boats.
As for disadvantages, the Pogo is an uncomfortable boat to sail upwind, slamming where the GS44 will go smoothly, it has no interior insulation, it has almost no outside storage space and it has a functional luminous interior that many will find too stark and devoided of coziness, with no doors, small cabin cabinets, very basic and with little storage.
Pogo 44
While on the GS44, due to the outside storage, it is possible to live and sail on the boat using the three cabins, on the Pogo, in any extensive cruising, one of the cabins will have to be used as storage space, due to the almost absence of outside storage space.
It would be tempting to say that Solaris 44, in what regards sailing characteristics, is in between the Pogo and the GS, but it would not be entirely true.
Although the Solaris 44, due to the transom design, seems beamier than the GS44, actually it is narrower, with a 4.18m beam (GS - 4.27) and it is also a bit smaller in length, even if it is hard to say how much because they don't give the hull length, only the overall length (43.8ft). However, the 41.7 LWL indicates that it is a smaller yacht, maybe a 43ft.
Solaris 44
These three yachts have very different hulls, all very well designed but maximized for different purposes. In what regards transom design the one of the Solaris will not allow the excellent light wind performance of the GS, but will allow a better one, if we compare it with Pogo's light wind performance.
If compared with Pogo, the Solaris will also have a better upwind performance, because Solaris hull transom shape allows more heel without increasing so much drag. This is true also on stronger conditions where Pogo will have a disproportional increase of wave drag, due to its much beamier hull.
GS44 Performance version
To understand better those differences you can follow the performance of Hermes, a Pogo 12.50, and Baltazar a Solaris 44, on the 2019 Caribbean 600 edition, which was raced with medium-high winds and that as usual, was mostly beam reaching/downwind sailing with very little upwind sailing. Look how the Pogo goes away downwind, and how the Solaris 44 catches up on the small upwind legs:
Due to the very particular GS44 hull design, even considering the narrower hull of the Solaris (4.18 - 4.27) and its bigger B/D, probably only with stronger winds and only upwind will the Solaris be able to match the GS44 performance, unless there is a full crew sitting on the side of the GS44.
However, the comparison between these two boats is difficult due to the vagueness and confusion regarding the GS44 displacement and ballast, which, in different documents from the shipyard, varies a lot: the hull between 9000 and 9500kg and the ballast between 2700 and 3000kg. I asked for a clarification from the shipyard, but I have received none.
Gs44, Pogo 44, Solaris 44
For the same draft and keel, it's very different to have a 9500kg displacement yacht with a 2700kg ballast or a 9000kg one with 3000kg ballast. One will have a 28% B/D, the other 33%, a very considerable difference that will give it a very different performance upwind with stronger winds as well as a better performance beam reaching, with medium-high to higher winds.
And then there is also the problem, that I have referred to in previous posts, regarding too optimistic projected design displacements, that later. when the boat is built, have no correspondence with the real boat displacement, and that most of the time are not corrected on the shipyard site.
That was not the case with Solaris 44, which was initially given with a 9900kg displacement, and then corrected to 10500kg. But even so, the Farewell IV, a Solaris 44 that has made some races on the Italian ORC championship, displaces, according to its ORC file, 11433kg without sails or tankage and 12778kg in sailing condition.
This yacht seems not to have carbon spars and almost for sure it could be lighter, but it is certainly lighter than most Solaris 44 that are bought for cruising. Regarding the first announced displacement and the weight of Farewell IV (without sails or tankage), there is a 1533 kg difference, that was reduced to 933kg, when they modified, on the shipyard information, the displacement attributed to the Solaris 44.
GS44, Pogo44, Solaris 44
The Solaris 44 has a 3600kg ballast but considering the same standard torpedo keel with 2.60m draft, this ballast has a different meaning on a boat with 9900kg, 10500kg or 11433, giving respectively a 36.4%BD, a 34.3%B/D and a 31.5%B/D and the sail performance will vary the way it was described above for the GS44, with a bigger or smaller B/D.
The GS44 is too new to find any ORC file, but as a way to see if the divergence in displacements given by the shipyard and the real measured displacement is so big as on the Solaris case, we can look at the GS44 big brother, the GS48, that has already a ORC certificate.
The Athyris was the first GS48 built, an R version (Racing), not the full carbon one, but with lighter furniture, with spars and other items in carbon, racing big draft keel, a version that according to the shipyard is 1000kg lighter than the Performance version.
The GS48 shipyard displacement is 10500kg, the ORC Athyris measured displacement, without sails or tankage, is 11327kg, adifference of about 827kg.In sailing condition the Athyris displaces 12651kg.
They could say that 10500kg is the displacement of the full carbon version, but if so a 1000kg difference to the performance version seems far-fetched and taking into consideration the fiberglass hull and deck, the smaller draft (and bigger ballast), the teak deck, the aluminum spars, it should be more than that, and I bet the performance version, without sails or tankage, will displace about 12300/12500kg (and not 11500kg). If we consider that the GS48 is a bigger yacht, even so, perhaps a smaller difference between the given and real displacement on the numbers given by GS shipyard, if compared with Solaris' ones.
Grand Soleil 44
With this incertitude regarding the real boat's displacement, and the ballast used in different keel versions, it is more difficult to make conclusions, but assuming that between these two brands the difference in the displacement given by the shipyard, and the real one, is not very different, the Solaris 44 has a superior B/D for a similar keel and it will sail probably faster upwind with strong wind (unless there is a crew seated on the GS44 side).
Pogo44, bellow Solaris 44
Downwind with medium-high to strong winds, the Solaris, even if not probably faster, it will be easier to sail by a short crew, with less heel, and on strong sea conditions with big waves, it will roll less, being also probably easier to be sailed (on those conditions) on auto-pilot.
The GS 44 will be faster and more fun to sail in light and medium winds, and in what regards racing and overall performance, will be always faster than the Solaris 44, unless in very specific and limited offshore situations. If the boat is used for racing and cruising the more adequate boat will be the GS 44, for cruising it depends on the sailor's preferences.
The superior Solaris aptitude in stronger conditions upwind is a relative one, and I don't have doubts that even, if not subjected to those conditions in any test (yet), the GS44, due to its fine entries, hull design, draft, ballast/type of keel, will have the power to have a good performance upwind in strong conditions, and anyway, those are conditions that most cruisers avoid (sailing upwind with more than 20kt).
The sail hardware is of similar quality, with the difference (on the GS44) of having as option transversal rails for the small genoa. Both yachts offer similar equipment and the possibility of having very good and complete sail hardware, even if on both cases, fore having a top one, there is the need of selecting several options, on the GS case, from de "Racing" version.
GS44
The interiors have a similar quality (I have not been yet inside the GS 44, only inside the GS48) but offer, by design, a different feel and liking more one than another is as much a personal thing as preferring the sailing characteristics of the Grand Soleil over the ones of Solaris, but regarding that, you will have no problem in choosing, and I hope that in what regards sailing characteristics this article will help.
The main difference is that the Solaris offers a true chart table with a dedicated seat while the GS only offers a small one, using not a more comfortable dedicated seat, but the salon seat. For some that will be a big issue, others could not care less. On the Grand Soleil there is the possibility of choosing between the lighter interior of the racing version and the one of the Performance version, with cabinets on the saloon.
GS44
Regarding storage, if we consider the GS44 Performance version with cabinets on the saloon, the difference in storage will not be big, even if the Solaris has cabinets on the forward cabin and I am not sure about that on the GS performance version (no information), and there is more storage space on the galley superior cabinets, where the GS does not present a great solution. Maybe they will improve it on the Performance version.
In the outside storage, the Solaris sail locker seems a bit bigger and more usable (less narrow) and there is storage under one of the seats, while on the Grand Soleil both spaces under the seats are used for increasing the space on the aft cabins. This is somewhat compensated by the bigger space on the stern under the cockpit that is provided by the GS, due to his more advanced ruder position.
Anyway, two great performance cruising boats, with the GS44 offering more versatility in what regards the possible combinations between a faster version, more race-oriented, or a simpler and cheaper version, more cruising oriented.
Gs44, Pogo44, Solaris 44
In regards to building, all three boats use vacuum infusion, fiberglass and a sandwich with a foam core.
The Pogo uses polyester resins and only uses vinylester on the outer layer. The bulkheads are made of cored fiberglass.
Only on the GS Racing version are used fiberglass sandwich on the main bulkheads, on the performance version they are made of maritime plywood (bonded and laminated to hull and deck).
On the GS44 hull and deck are made with a fiberglass sandwich having Airex (high-quality PVC foam) as core and vynilester resins. They also use carbon fibers where bigger reinforcements are needed, namely on the keel structure.
As it is normal, on the three boats, monolithic laminate is used on the keel areas, hull windows, and through-the-hull passage areas.
On the Solaris 44 the forward and main bulkheads are made of sandwich composite, on the others they use plywood.
Airex is used as core in hull and deck, carbon reinforcements are used on the boat structure, but in what regards the used resin, even if some boats have been made with epoxy resin, on the technical building specifications the type of resin is not mentioned.
There are several types of resins, but not even the best Polyester resins are as good as Vinylester resins, which are epoxy-based resins, and Vynilseter resins are not as good as true Epoxy resins.
GS 44
The prices grow, from Polyester to Epoxy, being Epoxy resins several times more expensive than good Polyester resins.
Vynilester and Epoxy resins are waterproof and have other superior characteristics. Polyester resins are not truly waterproof, with time they absorb water, and that's why on boats with hulls where polyester resins are used, many times the first fiberglass coat, the one that will have contact with the water, is made with vinylester resins.
Regarding prices, the Pogo 44, which is a 42ft boat, is the least expensive and a decently equipped boat will cost about 350000 euros (plus VAT) and discounts are not to be expected. On the GS 44 and the Solaris 44 (43ft?) a small discount is possible and in the end, between these two the prices will be very similar and a relatively well-equipped boat will cost just a bit more than 400,000 euros (plus VAT).
Knowing that a boat design is a cumulus of decisions to optimece one feature in decrement of another one. I really like the GS44, I think that it is the perfect boat (so far) for cruising-performance style.
Thanks Paulo, this is what I call a dream post ! speaking of which...
I would be interested to know your assessment about which boat is more adapted for cruising/day sailing (not racing) singlehanded in three different scenarios: Med, Caribbean and South Pacific (i.e. medium/long pacific swells, often reinforced trades above 15/20, occasional tropical squalls and confused choppy seas depending on local conditions). In all three cases assume loop cruising so equal amount of upwind/downwind and reach conditions to always come back "home". Leaving aside safety, cost, practicality, aesthetic and other factors but looking purely at the sea-kindliness, ease of handling and performance aspects (for Singlehandling or unusable crew...) what are your picks ? From the post I think I know your answers but let's see what you have to say. Thanks Alex
I guess that you can infer by what I said my opinion about that.
If we talk about most cruisers, light wind advantages or sailing upwind, it means not much because with light wind and upwind, they just turn their engine on, an believe it or not, I have out sailed several times sailboats running at full speed, on their engines, while I was sailing in light to medium winds.
In what regards that the GS44 will be the champion, no doubt.
Regarding your question, if you are not the type of guy to turn your engine in light winds, 3 to 8K, the best on the Med will be the GS44.
On other scenarios I don't know because I don't know as well the conditions but I guess that, based on what I said, if you know the conditions, you can reply to that.
But if I could chose an Ideal boat for me, and for doing all you talk, I would have a XP44 (the way it is built, displacement, B/D and interior) with the GS44 hull.
As that is not possible, if I could chose between a XP44 and a GS44, I would chose the XP44. If I was a racer possibly I would chose the GS44 that I believe it will get better results in handicap racing and probably even in what regards racing with a crew in inshore regatas (crew seated on the side).
Paulo you think that single handed a GS44 is better than a Pogo 44? Pogo 44 was conceived for single handing. Sailing the GS44 alone will be a challenge, especially in strong winds.
Pogo was conceived (that type of hulls) to sail single handed or duo on the trade winds and there is no doubt the easiest and the fastest. Upwind it is a different story. Both boats will be a challenge to sail solo with strong winds, if one is racing. No problem if you are sailing the boat in security mode (very small sail area).
There are several other boats on the same league, not only the Italia 12.98 that with 41.4ft it is a bit short, even smaller than the Pogo. The 13.98 is an older design (2012) and bigger (45ft).
The 13.98 should be replaced soon and I am very interested in seeing what they would bring to replace it.
bom dia Paulo, tudo bem? congratualtions on this excellent analysis! i am wondering how the Arcona 435 would fare in comparison with the fare with the yachts that you analyzed in your article. what's your take on that boat ... ?
there are several other yachts that could be brought to the comparison among them Arcona 435, XP44, Luffe 45, XP4-6 (44ft), Italia 13.98 (45ft), JPK45 and several others from small brands.
I brought these three for the comparison not only because they have very well designed, up to date hulls, but also because they are different and cost, without the Pogo exception, about the same.
The Arcona 435 is a great boat that costs on the paper about as much as the Solaris or a GS44, with a difference that they have a policy of not making discounts, and that means, considering the discounts I can have, that it costs about more 40000 euros than the GS or the Solaris. I checked that out last year for a client, with the boats with the same options.
Regarding sailing characteristics the Arcona 435 is in between the Grand Soleil 44 and the Solaris 44, being slower than the GS44 and I believe in most conditions slightly slower than the Solaris 44 (in real time). In Handicap racing, probably as good as the Solaris 44 (or better, I have no information, only about the previous model, Arcona 430) and worse than the GS44.
It is very well built and with a great quality interior with more hand-made details than any of the Italian boats. In what regards Cruising, between these boats, it is a question of personal taste, they are all great yachts.
Why do you say the Pogo is uninsulated? The hull is a composite with closed cell foam. One of the better insulation materials in the building industry.
Like all other mentioned boats, on the Pogo, the hull and deck is a sandwich with closed cell foam. But contrary to all others, on the inside, the cabin top and sides are left bare, without any panels for insulation.
It is really hard to know the real weight of a sailboat, without weighting it.
For the GS44, there are now 2 orc certificate published, one at 9535 kg, at 2.4m draft, the other at 11050 kg, with a 2.6 draft. It is around 15% variation.
But for other brands, it is the same. You can find ORC certificate at 8615 kg for XP-44, with 2.65 draft and aluminium mast at 334 kg, weighted in 2018. Or 10151 kg for another XP-44, same draft, and carbon mast weighting 265 kg, measured in 2020.
If you look at ORC certificates from Oceanis or Sun Odysseys you will see that the ORC declared weight is the same that its declared by the shipyard.
This does not mean that the boat has the displacement that it is declared by the shipyard. It was accepted because they know that boats always weight more than what it is declared by the shipyard and because that will not be translated in a better handicap.
That happens because owners of Oceanis or Sun odyssey are not "serious" racers and are racing in a kind of relaxed way, not really for winning, and don't want to have the trouble to have the real boat displacement measured.
For looking to accurate displacements you should look to the more competitive boats (among same models) and sailors. Those are the ones that are interested in having a correct displacement measured, because a bigger displacement lowers the rating and makes the boat more competitive.
ORC Club certificate use declared weight and standard stability.
ORC international certificate use measured weight and stability.
The weight above for the GS44 and XP-44 are from ORC international certificate. So they have been measured for each boat.
Even for the Beneteau First 45, an older boat where you have more ORC international certificates available, the 2 lightest are weighted under 10525 kg. the 2 heaviest are over 11700 kg.
On this descriptive: https://www.yachtworld.fr/bateaux/2021/X-Yachts-X4.3-3109301/ (full specification page). It is clearly stated that the hull is built infusion, oven cured and epoxy. But it is also stated that the deck is hand laid polyester.
Decks are much more complex to manufacture than a hull. More complex forms with coachroof and cockpit, much more openings(roof windows, deck hatches, cockpit lockers...) , much more local reinforcement (sheets, mooring, winches ), compression due to rig loads ...
On the older Beneteau, the main manufacturing difference between the Oceanis and First series was the deck. Hand laid for Oceanis, injection for the First.
In fact it is a bit odd. Even Beneteau and Jeanneau are using now infusion or injection systems on the sandwich decks, but that does not mean that the X 4.3 deck is less strong even if heavier, than what would be if vacuum infusion was used.
The main advantage of using vacuum infusion over hand laid in a sandwich composite is the savings in resin and therefore in weight. I don't know why they don't use infusion but I know of builders that prefer in some cases to use hand-laid instead of infusion for a number of reasons and price is not one of them.
If you compare the Pogo 12.5 and the Solaris 44 on the carribean 600, it is an unfair comparison.
The Pogo 12.5 is really 12.18 m hull length. The Solaris 44 is 13.32 m hull length. The static waterline of the Solaris 44 is 12.7m, over half meter longer than the hull length of the Pogo. On close hauled, when it is somehow rare to go planning, the Pogo can do nothing, even if it has the same righting moment at 1° (RM1) as the Solaris 44.
Well, what I wanted to give was a general idea about the Pogo 44 performance versus Solaris 44 and Grand Soleil 44 but I had only information about the Pogo 12.50 racing performance.
The Pogo 12.50 is smaller but not much. The Pogo 44 is a 42ft boat, but it is considerably heavier than the Pogo 12.50 and they should not have a very different performance, even if the 44 should be slightly faster.
Regarding Solaris 44 comparison with the Pogo 12.50 in the 2019 Caribbean 600, a IRC race, it is good to remember that the Solaris 44 handicap is smaller and much better than the one from the Pogo 12.50 (1.107 to 1.176).
I have referred the 2019 edition because it was raced with optimal conditions for the Pogo 12.50, with high-medium winds. On the 2020 edition raced with weaker winds the same Pogo 12.50 (Hermes) was not able to beat a JPK 10.80 neither a J122, that finished well ahead.
On typical Mediterranean conditions with more upwind sailing, weak, medium and sometimes strong winds, in the 2019 Middle Sea Race, a Pogo 12.50 entered on the double handed class. It was slower in real-time than a JPK 10.80, a Sunfast 3600 and a Figaro 2 and also slower (but close) to an older Reflex 38 (all boats duo-handed).
On the same race, in the 2018 edition, two Pogos 12.50 entered, among them Hermes, the same Pogo 12.50 that was faster than the Solaris 44 on the Caribbean 600. Raced with a full crew was slower than a J122, about as fast as a Sunfast 3600, while other Sunfast 3600, and two JPK 10.80 were much faster, as well as a Figaro II. A JPK 11.80 finished about 10 hours ahead. All in real-time because due to the Pogo 12.50 bad rating all the mentioned boats finished much ahead the Pogos on the classification.
The other Pogo 12.50 was slower than Hermes…but not much having a not very different performance. They finished with about 1hour and a half difference.
Of course, if we were talking about a Transat race on normal circumstances and typical conditions the Pogo 12.50 would be faster than any of the mentioned sailboats.
Paulo: this implied rule that race results (sometimes single race) can be used to determine which boat is faster does not help credibility. What of all of the monotype races? The Volvo Ocean race??? Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking as we say in the US...
Fact is that ONLY RACE results in real time (elapsed time) can say for sure what are the fastest boats, and in what conditions they are faster.
Sure, you cannot rely in single results, because the boats can be badly sailed and that is why I look only at the results from main races, where the general level is high, and also why I discard the worse results, if there are several boats from the same model racing.
Anyway I have been observing comparative performance data from many boats on the main races for more than a decade and the data, regarding many sailboats, is relevant, in what concerns their comparative performance, with different sailing conditions.
In what regards VOR racers the last race where they performed give me very interesting information regarding their performance compared with the performance of much newer IMOCA racers, using foils, and I would say that the information is quite unexpected.
Regarding monotype racing I don't get your point: if the race is an international major one the results from the fastest boats will be very close, as expected. The same thing happens with the VOR between the best teams, taking into account the (big) duration of each leg, due to the big distances raced.
The GS44 is too new to find any ORC file, but as a way to see if the divergence in displacements given by the shipyard and the real measured displacement is so big as on the Solaris case, we can look at the GS44 big brother, the GS48, that has already a ORC certificate. 
The GS48 shipyard displacement is 10500kg, the ORC Athyris measured displacement, without sails or tankage, is 11327kg, a difference of about 827kg. In sailing condition the Athyris displaces 12651kg.
The GS 44 will be faster and more fun to sail in light and medium winds, and in what regards racing and overall performance, will be always faster than the Solaris 44, unless in very specific and limited offshore situations. If the boat is used for racing and cruising the more adequate boat will be the GS 44, for cruising it depends on the sailor's preferences.
Great report!
ReplyDeleteGreat post Paulo,
ReplyDeleteKnowing that a boat design is a cumulus of decisions to optimece one feature in decrement of another one. I really like the GS44, I think that it is the perfect boat (so far) for cruising-performance style.
Really thanks for sharing your wide knoledge
Thanks Paulo, this is what I call a dream post ! speaking of which...
ReplyDeleteI would be interested to know your assessment about which boat is more adapted for cruising/day sailing (not racing) singlehanded in three different scenarios: Med, Caribbean and South Pacific (i.e. medium/long pacific swells, often reinforced trades above 15/20, occasional tropical squalls and confused choppy seas depending on local conditions). In all three cases assume loop cruising so equal amount of upwind/downwind and reach conditions to always come back "home". Leaving aside safety, cost, practicality, aesthetic and other factors but looking purely at the sea-kindliness, ease of handling and performance aspects (for Singlehandling or unusable crew...) what are your picks ? From the post I think I know your answers but let's see what you have to say.
Thanks
Alex
I guess that you can infer by what I said my opinion about that.
DeleteIf we talk about most cruisers, light wind advantages or sailing upwind, it means not much because with light wind and upwind, they just turn their engine on, an believe it or not, I have out sailed several times sailboats running at full speed, on their engines, while I was sailing in light to medium winds.
In what regards that the GS44 will be the champion, no doubt.
Regarding your question, if you are not the type of guy to turn your engine in light winds, 3 to 8K, the best on the Med will be the GS44.
On other scenarios I don't know because I don't know as well the conditions but I guess that, based on what I said, if you know the conditions, you can reply to that.
But if I could chose an Ideal boat for me, and for doing all you talk, I would have a XP44 (the way it is built, displacement, B/D and interior) with the GS44 hull.
As that is not possible, if I could chose between a XP44 and a GS44, I would chose the XP44. If I was a racer possibly I would chose the GS44 that I believe it will get better results in handicap racing and probably even in what regards racing with a crew in inshore regatas (crew seated on the side).
Paulo you think that single handed a GS44 is better than a Pogo 44? Pogo 44 was conceived for single handing. Sailing the GS44 alone will be a challenge, especially in strong winds.
DeletePogo was conceived (that type of hulls) to sail single handed or duo on the trade winds and there is no doubt the easiest and the fastest. Upwind it is a different story. Both boats will be a challenge to sail solo with strong winds, if one is racing. No problem if you are sailing the boat in security mode (very small sail area).
DeleteGreat post as always Paulo! Would be good to include also Italia Yachts in the comparison! I believe it's pretty much in the same league :)
ReplyDeleteThere are several other boats on the same league, not only the Italia 12.98 that with 41.4ft it is a bit short, even smaller than the Pogo. The 13.98 is an older design (2012) and bigger (45ft).
DeleteThe 13.98 should be replaced soon and I am very interested in seeing what they would bring to replace it.
bom dia Paulo, tudo bem?
ReplyDeletecongratualtions on this excellent analysis! i am wondering how the Arcona 435 would fare in comparison with the fare with the yachts that you analyzed in your article. what's your take on that boat ... ?
Boa tarde,
Deletethere are several other yachts that could be brought to the comparison among them Arcona 435, XP44, Luffe 45, XP4-6 (44ft), Italia 13.98 (45ft), JPK45 and several others from small brands.
I brought these three for the comparison not only because they have very well designed, up to date hulls, but also because they are different and cost, without the Pogo exception, about the same.
The Arcona 435 is a great boat that costs on the paper about as much as the Solaris or a GS44, with a difference that they have a policy of not making discounts, and that means, considering the discounts I can have, that it costs about more 40000 euros than the GS or the Solaris. I checked that out last year for a client, with the boats with the same options.
Regarding sailing characteristics the Arcona 435 is in between the Grand Soleil 44 and the Solaris 44, being slower than the GS44 and I believe in most conditions slightly slower than the Solaris 44 (in real time).
In Handicap racing, probably as good as the Solaris 44 (or better, I have no information, only about the previous model, Arcona 430) and worse than the GS44.
It is very well built and with a great quality interior with more hand-made details than any of the Italian boats. In what regards Cruising, between these boats, it is a question of personal taste, they are all great yachts.
Bons ventos.
thank you Paulo, good to know ... ;-)
Deletei did all theses ship ! in different conditions with or without guest , i'm not agree with you ! just depend your hand !
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say the Pogo is uninsulated? The hull is a composite with closed cell foam. One of the better insulation materials in the building industry.
ReplyDeleteLike all other mentioned boats, on the Pogo, the hull and deck is a sandwich with closed cell foam. But contrary to all others, on the inside, the cabin top and sides are left bare, without any panels for insulation.
DeleteIt is really hard to know the real weight of a sailboat, without weighting it.
ReplyDeleteFor the GS44, there are now 2 orc certificate published, one at 9535 kg, at 2.4m draft, the other at 11050 kg, with a 2.6 draft. It is around 15% variation.
But for other brands, it is the same. You can find ORC certificate at 8615 kg for XP-44, with 2.65 draft and aluminium mast at 334 kg, weighted in 2018. Or 10151 kg for another XP-44, same draft, and carbon mast weighting 265 kg, measured in 2020.
If you look at ORC certificates from Oceanis or Sun Odysseys you will see that the ORC declared weight is the same that its declared by the shipyard.
ReplyDeleteThis does not mean that the boat has the displacement that it is declared by the shipyard. It was accepted because they know that boats always weight more than what it is declared by the shipyard and because that will not be translated in a better handicap.
That happens because owners of Oceanis or Sun odyssey are not "serious" racers and are racing in a kind of relaxed way, not really for winning, and don't want to have the trouble to have the real boat displacement measured.
For looking to accurate displacements you should look to the more competitive boats (among same models) and sailors. Those are the ones that are interested in having a correct displacement measured, because a bigger displacement lowers the rating and makes the boat more competitive.
There are 2 kind of ORC certificates.
DeleteORC Club certificate use declared weight and standard stability.
ORC international certificate use measured weight and stability.
The weight above for the GS44 and XP-44 are from ORC international certificate. So they have been measured for each boat.
Even for the Beneteau First 45, an older boat where you have more ORC international certificates available, the 2 lightest are weighted under 10525 kg. the 2 heaviest are over 11700 kg.
Beware of deck construction :
ReplyDeleteOn this descriptive: https://www.yachtworld.fr/bateaux/2021/X-Yachts-X4.3-3109301/
(full specification page).
It is clearly stated that the hull is built infusion, oven cured and epoxy.
But it is also stated that the deck is hand laid polyester.
Decks are much more complex to manufacture than a hull. More complex forms with coachroof and cockpit, much more openings(roof windows, deck hatches, cockpit lockers...) , much more local reinforcement (sheets, mooring, winches ), compression due to rig loads ...
On the older Beneteau, the main manufacturing difference between the Oceanis and First series was the deck. Hand laid for Oceanis, injection for the First.
In fact it is a bit odd. Even Beneteau and Jeanneau are using now infusion or injection systems on the sandwich decks, but that does not mean that the X 4.3 deck is less strong even if heavier, than what would be if vacuum infusion was used.
ReplyDeleteThe main advantage of using vacuum infusion over hand laid in a sandwich composite is the savings in resin and therefore in weight. I don't know why they don't use infusion but I know of builders that prefer in some cases to use hand-laid instead of infusion for a number of reasons and price is not one of them.
If you compare the Pogo 12.5 and the Solaris 44 on the carribean 600, it is an unfair comparison.
ReplyDeleteThe Pogo 12.5 is really 12.18 m hull length. The Solaris 44 is 13.32 m hull length. The static waterline of the Solaris 44 is 12.7m, over half meter longer than the hull length of the Pogo. On close hauled, when it is somehow rare to go planning, the Pogo can do nothing, even if it has the same righting moment at 1° (RM1) as the Solaris 44.
Well, what I wanted to give was a general idea about the Pogo 44 performance versus Solaris 44 and Grand Soleil 44 but I had only information about the Pogo 12.50 racing performance.
DeleteThe Pogo 12.50 is smaller but not much. The Pogo 44 is a 42ft boat, but it is considerably heavier than the Pogo 12.50 and they should not have a very different performance, even if the 44 should be slightly faster.
Regarding Solaris 44 comparison with the Pogo 12.50 in the 2019 Caribbean 600, a IRC race, it is good to remember that the Solaris 44 handicap is smaller and much better than the one from the Pogo 12.50 (1.107 to 1.176).
I have referred the 2019 edition because it was raced with optimal conditions for the Pogo 12.50, with high-medium winds. On the 2020 edition raced with weaker winds the same Pogo 12.50 (Hermes) was not able to beat a JPK 10.80 neither a J122, that finished well ahead.
On typical Mediterranean conditions with more upwind sailing, weak, medium and sometimes strong winds, in the 2019 Middle Sea Race, a Pogo 12.50 entered on the double handed class. It was slower in real-time than a JPK 10.80, a Sunfast 3600 and a Figaro 2 and also slower (but close) to an older Reflex 38 (all boats duo-handed).
On the same race, in the 2018 edition, two Pogos 12.50 entered, among them Hermes, the same Pogo 12.50 that was faster than the Solaris 44 on the Caribbean 600. Raced with a full crew was slower than a J122, about as fast as a Sunfast 3600, while other Sunfast 3600, and two JPK 10.80 were much faster, as well as a Figaro II. A JPK 11.80 finished about 10 hours ahead. All in real-time because due to the Pogo 12.50 bad rating all the mentioned boats finished much ahead the Pogos on the classification.
The other Pogo 12.50 was slower than Hermes…but not much having a not very different performance. They finished with about 1hour and a half difference.
Of course, if we were talking about a Transat race on normal circumstances and typical conditions the Pogo 12.50 would be faster than any of the mentioned sailboats.
Paulo: this implied rule that race results (sometimes single race) can be used to determine which boat is faster does not help credibility. What of all of the monotype races? The Volvo Ocean race??? Sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking as we say in the US...
ReplyDeleteFact is that ONLY RACE results in real time (elapsed time) can say for sure what are the fastest boats, and in what conditions they are faster.
DeleteSure, you cannot rely in single results, because the boats can be badly sailed and that is why I look only at the results from main races, where the general level is high, and also why I discard the worse results, if there are several boats from the same model racing.
Anyway I have been observing comparative performance data from many boats on the main races for more than a decade and the data, regarding many sailboats, is relevant, in what concerns their comparative performance, with different sailing conditions.
In what regards VOR racers the last race where they performed give me very interesting information regarding their performance compared with the performance of much newer IMOCA racers, using foils, and I would say that the information is quite unexpected.
Regarding monotype racing I don't get your point: if the race is an international major one the results from the fastest boats will be very close, as expected. The same thing happens with the VOR between the best teams, taking into account the (big) duration of each leg, due to the big distances raced.