Saturday, November 9, 2019

BEAUTIFUL RM 11.80


The RM 11.80 is much slicker than the first 40ft from RM, the 1200, that was at the time (2003) the biggest  RM to date. The 1200 looks amateurish by comparison, rude, much heavier and slower.

At the time I sailed the RM 1200 and in weak winds and it seemed to me slow and sluggish, but of course that was not what it was designed for, it was already a very good boat on a beam reach or downwind.

RM 1200
The new RM is not only more stylish but also the building techniques are different. The RM 1200, contrary to older models,  had already a cored fiberglass deck, being the hull made from marine plywood, a special grade, that was  later saturated with epoxy but on this one the fiberglass use went further:

To give more complex shapes to the upper part of the hull, on the RM 11.80 the sides  are also made of cored fiberglass. Only the submerged part of the hull is now made of saturated plywood and  mostly due to being easier to fix their traditional keel structure that is made of steel.

So much for the brand publicity about being a more ecological boat LOL. But maybe there are other reasons, out of aesthetics  to these changes?  Have they  allowed to make it lighter? or stronger?

 Surprisingly the RM 11.80 is heavier than the RM1200 (7000kg - 6800kg), smaller (HL: 11.80m - 11.99m) but beamier (4.37m -  4.22m). The RM 1200 was offered exclusively as a twin keel boat (1.80m draft) and while still being the twin keel the more popular version on the RM 11.80, it is also proposed standard with a traditional torpedo keel (two rudders on that version) and also an optional hydraulic swing keel with all ballast on the keel being the drafts respectively 1.95m, 2.25m and 1.3/3.20m.

Regarding ballast and B/D RM entered on the bad wave of not disclosing the ballast of their boats a thing I don't understand because I certainly would not buy a boat without knowing what the B/D is and without looking at the stability curve. 

Sure it is a certified class A boat but that is a minimum and there are huge differences in stability among boats certified on the class and I surely would not want a boat that makes it barely class A in what regards stability in any of the requirements including AVS.

But if they choose to do so, as some other brands, that means that most people that buy boats just don't care about that and trust they are providing very safe boats. The problem is that today for a boat to sail well, with yachts with a huge hull form stability, they don't need to have a good safety stability and that is really a temptation for boat builders (it is cheaper to have a low safety stability) and a problem to buyers.

If you did not read it have a look at this post that I made about the subject:
 https://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2019/05/please-rcd-certification-for-bluewater.html

On the RM 1200 the ballast was 2700kg (B/D 39.7%) and that even with a draft of 1.80m gives a boat a decent final stability with an AVS a bit over 115º. I don't believe the AVS or the final stability of the new boat to be better than the one of the old one. The RM 10.88 is a beamier boat, needs less ballast to sail well and because it has more draft it needs less  ballast to have a similar stability. It has for sure less ballast.

 So we reach the surprising conclusion that the use of the fiberglass on the sides of the hull did in fact make the boat not lighter but heavier because even with less ballast and smaller than the RM 1200 the 11.80 is heavier. Will it be stronger? I doubt very much, I don't see how using two different materials it is possible to make a boat stronger than using  a single one that is already probably stronger than fiberglass.

Is it worth it? Well, that will depend how much you value the looks of the boat and certainly the new boat is gorgeous.

Comparing ratios between the two boats we will see that the older boat has a slightly better D/L (meaning lighter) 132.3 to 133.7 and that regarding SA/D the upwind values are very similar (19.8 to 20) and that downwind the new boat carries more sail (42.8 to 54.8). For the values of the ratios, not knowing the RM 11.88  LWL I had estimated a value of 11.35, a bigger one if compared with the one of the RM 1200 due to the inverted bow.

If we consider that the SA/D with the genoa is practically similar (26.2 to 26.1) and that the loaded weight on cruising mode will be very similar probably the two RM, the older and the new will have a very similar performance while using genoa or jib, being probably the older one a bit faster upwind due to a lesser beam. Only downwind and under geenaker (that is much bigger) the new one will be faster.

The RM 11.88 will be faster on most conditions, specially on a beam reach and downwind than mass production main market cruisers like Jeanneau, Beneteau or Hanse but they are sold as performance cruisers so the question is: will they be faster or comparable in speed with more traditional IRC based performance cruisers? Let´s see what we can find regarding race results (previous models) that are not many because few chose to race them and with good reason.

We can find a RM 1270 that in 2017 made 3 races on  the British two handed IRC championship with not good results. On the Fastnet was more than 13 hours slower than a Sun Fast 3600, more than 6 hours slower than a J109 and more than 2 hours slower than a Salona 380 (all boats two handed).

We can also find a RM 1260 that made the Middle Sea Race in 2016 with even worse results and that is not surprising if we consider that the Fastnet is mostly a beam reach race normally with medium to strong winds while on the Middle Sea Race the conditions are typically Mediterranean with mixed conditions but always with a fair part of upwind sailing and many times, besides medium to strong winds, a lot of weak winds.

The RM 1260, also double handed, did not complete the race but on his last timed passage, at Stromboli, it had already lost about 16 hours for a Solaris 42, more than 7 hours and a half for a Comet 41s and about 7 hours to a J109, all two handed.



They call it a performance cruiser but it is not certainly a cruiser-racer and if you want a boat to cruise and to race occasionally this is not the boat to have. If you want to sail on the med and want a boat with a good sailing performance, again, you can chose a better boat but if you want to voyage on the trade winds this is certainly a very adequate and a fast boat, faster than most other voyage boats on the market and also a very stable boat that will roll very little, sail with a low angle of heel and  that will allow an autopilot to work very efficiently at speeds that on other fast types of hulls you would have to steer manually.



There is one thing that almost all agree regarding this boat: it has a great interior one that was already very good on the RM 1200 and that has been improving along the years. Difficult to make better and nicer even if the quality and finish being good are more on the practical side than on the luxurious side.

The boat is already a success and before having the first one ready they had already 17 sold. Probably there is going to be a waiting list for this one that was also nominated for the European Yacht of the year contest. A very nice boat!

13 comments:

  1. I'm too stupid to understand why they make bottom in plywood. It just does not make any sense to have "joints" and weaker bottom... Boat looks nice, specially the color http://www.barchemagazine.com/en/rm1180-images-hybrid-model

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  2. Plywood is not weaker than fiberglass and probably it is stronger if one takes the option to have kevlar laminated over it (RM has that option).

    "f course ply/epoxy is considerably stiffer for a given weight as compared to an uncored glass/resin layup.""Plywood can flex further for a longer time and distance than GRP can with out breaking"." You have a tough time beating plywood. It's an incredibly good building material."https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/that-is-the-diference-between-plywood-and-fiberglass.9770/

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  3. Aesthetically a compelling boat. Perhaps more so than any other I have seen on the market.

    Very poor customer relations though! I have tried repeatedly to get in touch with them, to no avail! I don't like the precedent this sets regarding future ownership and if issues arose: will they respond??? Couple that with the fact that I am in North America....

    Have you requested the stability data from them? Do you know the keel weight on the swing keel version and the keel's structure?

    An amazingly beautiful boat, but I'm concerned about the performance, stability numbers, and lack of customer support.

    Thoughts? Would you agree that even with the above concerns, it will still have better characteristics than any of the main production boats, such as Bene, Jeanneau, Dufour, etc?

    Thanks Paulo, and thanks for your wonderful and informative content!!!

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  4. They don't have a dealer on the US. The closer is on the French Caribbean : contact@bateaux-antilles.fr

    I do know an American that has ordered one that will be delivered in a bit more than a year. He bought it directly from the shipyard and will sail it from there solo to the Pacific where he likes to sail. If you want to talk with him contact me by email (it is on the blog).

    For sure it has better characteristics than mass production main market boats in what regards speed specially in what regards downwind and beam reaching and it is better built being more solid.

    About this one I have some doubts regarding the way they make the hull connection between the epoxy impregnated marine plywood and the hull sides. I am confident that they know what they are doing but I wouldn't buy one without checking that. That is the first RM that uses fiberglass on the hull sides.

    Regarding stability and the swing keel they did not released any data but the designer is always the same, a very good one, Marc Lombard, and on his designs with different keels he gives always a similar RM curve to the boats, putting more or less ballast on the different keels for that to happen.

    Probably the boat with the Swing Keel will be the lighter one due to the bigger draft when the keel is down but the AVS will be identical to the one of the other versions.

    Based on other models I would say that you should not be concerned about the boat stability that should be better than the one of almost all mass main market production boats but if I was to buy the boat certainly I would ask them all the relevant data including the stability curve. I can check that for you if you want but they will only give it to you if you are really interested in buying the boat.

    Normally the relation with the clients is good. Maybe you are doing it the wrong way: tell then that you are interested in buying a boat and that you will pick it at the shipyard or if you prefer talk with the French dealer on the Caribbean to get the boat there.

    Maybe they are not replying because they don't have a US dealer and because they have already a long waiting list.

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  5. Customer support is non existent for most french boutique shipyard. Don't be fooled, they will sing nice songs until they get your cash. Any problem after commissioning is your personal problem. Been there, done that! Never ever again to have any dealings with french nationalistic morons. My only advise is to wait and buy second hand from french owner.

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  6. I had many doubts about publishing your comment. I don't allow on the blog rude language much less calling nationalist morons referring to Americans or French or any other nation.

    Saying that I ask you to put your words on context and refer what bad experience you had and with what shipyard. It is ridiculous to put them all on the same bag.

    I don't agree with the term "boutique shipyard" especially if referring to RM shipyard. It makes no sense at all on a shipyard that builds over 100 boats a year:
    http://www.rm-yachts.com/les-sorties-rm

    Regarding Americans that have bought boats directly in France and sailed them to America, and I mean not main market mass produced boats, I know several with good experiences so I would be especially interested in your bad experience.

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  7. Paulo, believe me, I had put my words exactly as I wanted and thought about it twice. I do not want to start a rant and will not. All my findings are first hand, not some rumors. They are very nationalistic. I have not see such a low quality workmanship and such problems on several same brand/model french flagged boats. Coincidence? Even so-called dual-quality foods, identically branded products being sold with different ingredients in different EU markets, was a normal practice in EU. If a business core culture is "lets build this shit, it will sail away and will be gone forever", they are morons. Forget about after-sale service, forget about assistance, forget about legal guarantee, even better, forget shipyard exists. As soon as you make a final payment, you will become interference, unnecessary liability and possible loss. Why bother? Ignorance, arrogance and pomposity will kick in at full force. A fish rots from the head down. I would not recommend such experience to even my worst enemy. Period.

    Just look at the comment above. They do not even bother to reply to a simple non-french email. Does this tiny example show something to you? Do you know many first hand Americans with RMs, JPKs, Pogos, Djangos, etc? I don’t. Americans buy Lagoons, FPs...

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  8. Yes, due to the nature of the boats posted on this blog and the fact that many owners of those boats are followers of this blog and talk to me, some personally, some by email or messenger, I do know a fair amount of Americans that have bought French fast modern cruising boats from medium and small shipyards.

    The Americans that buy Lagoons and main market mass production boats are certainly much more but they are not the type of sailors that follows this blog and I don't have contact with them.

    You continue to refer "low quality...on several same brand/model french flagged boats" and you infere that all boats produced by French small and medium shipyards have the same problems.

    That generalization makes no sense at all and the fact that you refuse to say of what you are talking about, not saying to what brand/model you are referring gives you little credibility and even less when you refer to all French as morons.

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  9. Regarding RM I do know of an American that have ordered one, two followers of this blog that have them ( a British and a Swede) and I have exchanged opinions with many owners (the RM are common in Europe) and I can’t tell you that generically the opinions are very positive.

    Also the increasing number of boats produced, the long waiting lists, would not happen if they did not sell a quality product, considering that it is more expensive than mass production boats.
    From all Americans/Canadians I know that had bought these boats in Europe I only have notice of a Canadian? that had Problems with a Pogo 12.50 but I do know of others and even more Europeans that are very satisfied with their boats.
    Regarding the problems with this particular case, that had to do basically with a discoloration on the gel coat, I talked with a senior guy from the Pogo factory (at Dusseldorf) that said to me that a solution was proposed but refused.
    I know that these cases are always messy and rarely the shipyards come out of it without any blame but the idea I have is that the boat owner was also difficult to deal with.
    Note that the Pogo is what it is; an inexpensive relatively well built boat that offers great sailing potential. One should not expect to have the finish or even the quality that it is expected to have in boats that cost two or three times more.

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  10. Paulo, I managed to make contact with RM, and Maxime over there has been helpful. He provided a variety of information, and stated he will be getting me info such as the stability index and ballast numbers.

    Excited to see the 11.80 at the Paris boat show and perhaps a visit to their boatyard.

    btw, I could not get your email tab to work! I would like to take you up on your offer of putting me in touch with the RM owner you mention.

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    1. pernao.paulo@gmail.com It works, many contact me through that email. If the tab does not work you have to write it manually. Email me and I will give you a form to contact him. Don't want to put it here.

      What you should ask is not the stability index but the RM curves and ballast.

      Please send that to me. If you want I will not publish them but it is always good to have that information.

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  11. To all that are eventually interested in buying a RM I would suggest a careful examination of the financial condition of Fora Marine, the shipyard that build RM.

    Maybe they have been bought already and a new investment make this old news but in September they asked a special judiciary protection, a pré bankruptcy situation if money is not injected.

    It seems odd that they are on this situation with an year and a half waiting list but it is not the first company that has financial troubles when they are growing fast, the same happened to Hallberg Rassy some years ago.

    This is what is known:
    https://www.boatindustry.fr/article/32633/fora-marine-le-constructeur-des-voiliers-rm-en-grande-difficulte?fbclid=IwAR289KVyg0FWgf6D5t48W_SJpogaAaL3odRaX1SZipTE2AM5dbaLrqlG3-o

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  12. And yesterday they said this about the situation:

    https://www.boatindustry.fr/article/32639/voiliers-rm-le-dirigeant-explique-la-mise-en-redressement-judiciaire-du-chantier-naval

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